Stuttering Therapy: A Case with Good Outcome

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Speaker 0 00:00 Welcome everybody. The purpose of this recording is to talk about stuttering and experiences. Uh, I’ve had with a family member. Um, I’ve been encouraged by a speech pathologists who are former students to make this, um, record of, of what we did because we’ve already did have a pretty good success after a fairly difficult, uh, challenging situation. Um, I’m not a speech therapist. Um, I encourage everybody listening to really, uh, do all your own research and really trust yourselves to, um, what could all the variables, all the available resources and um, think careful yourself about what is best. Um, I’m sure your, your personal judgment judgment will be the best, uh, for all of the concerns in your particular situation. Um, I have been among ballistics professor, associate with whiskeys professor the first part of my career for 16 years. Um, I am aware of language.
Speaker 0 01:07 I did, um, teach courses, uh, which had an, a fairly superficial way to do with speech pathology, but I don’t claim any professional, any professional qualifications. Um, when I did have as a situation in the family with, uh, a dear child who had a very, very difficult problem that, um, was taken, very seriously, analyzed, researched, and had a very, very good result, which is the purpose for this. Now that doesn’t mean that this necessarily applies to you. I think that what does apply to you is our experience of the value of looking into, um, all the possibilities yourselves and using your own judgment. I really believe in that. Um, now the, um, the first thing I’d like to say before I say anything in detail about what we experienced or what we did is that I personally believe very strongly that the key to everything even outside of, um, life.
Speaker 0 02:17 But it is a need to help somebody with stuttering is to enjoy life, to enjoy life with a child. That is the most important thing. And to realize that, um, a wife has all of these dimensions and stuttering is not, uh, something that really stops life. In fact, I think engaging all of life is a key to success. Um, I would even argue that stutters and with proper, um, uh, opportunity as grand people, uh, I’m going to be talking a lot about Charles van riper, who I seriously believe was one of the greatest individuals who have lived, who has lived inside or outside of the field of speech pathology. So, um, I’m not a therapist. I was only go seek professor. I have personal experience. Um, uh, what I did was, um, at age three and a half child was in great need. I’ll talk a little bit about that.
Speaker 0 03:23 I stopped work. I read everything available including uh, two great books at the time. This, this goes back to the seventies, by the way. Uh, by Charles van riper, they called the treatment of stuttering and the causes of stuttering. Um, he had had a recent heart problems and decided to write down everything that he knew about stuttering. Now he had been his stutter himself and was, uh, well I consider him the granddaughter, the grand old father of, of modern speech pathology studies. Um, although I’m sure you will find more recent research that will help you even beyond. But the point is that he had great difficulties of stuttering. He went everywhere around the world, even looking for treatments for himself. He tried everything. Uh, he had great experience with the treatments and, um, uh, he eventually found something that you could say at works. You could say it didn’t work.
Speaker 0 04:25 I would say it really worked because as his career progressed and he would go around giving lectures and stuttering, people would confront him saying he wasn’t a stutter. And he would say, I’m paraphrasing now, I will never, uh, Dane to quote him. You can go to the sources yourself, but he would say, no, I’m studying. At the current time, his theory, his idea was to, you know, if you can’t fight it, fight them, join them, just stutter fluently. I believe that the key to this is having a greater focus on the opportunities of life and, uh, just going with and around and, uh, uh, working over time to manage the situation. Meanwhile, living life as fully as possible. How wonderful your child will be in all the opportunities he even, even while you’re feeling sad about some struggling. Um, it can, I, in my experience, it could turn out very well to the point where you may find a child who goes through, uh, uh, years of, uh, of some therapy of Y may refresh that memory and not even remember the stuttering so much.
Speaker 0 05:38 In fact, that may be thought of from one point of view as the greatest echo accolade or compliment for any approach to stuttering, if what? Remember what remembers his life and not necessarily the struggle. And I don’t, I don’t mean to, the difficulty is there is pain involved, there are difficulties involved. It is very serious and uh, as I will make queer. But what we’re going to do here is talk a little bit about what happened. How I use van riper is survey of all the approaches to stuttering. How I made a chart designed to therapy, had a session every afternoon from three to five or so for three and a half years to eventual success with the help of other families members, of course, a great help in some cases. Um, so, um, what, what happened was at age three and a half, um, this once he came on with pretty rapid severity, uh, as all of you are probably quite locally at this point, more knowledgeable about the subject than I as you are likely aware.
Speaker 0 06:55 Um, there are stages, there are simple reputations of uh, of a sound or a syllable rap, rap, rap or <inaudible>. There are prolongation is, uh, so forth and so forth and so on. Uh, all of these basic disfluencies are known to be perfectly normal. Everybody has them. Everybody goes through a period where there’s more or less of them. Everybody still has them later in life. Um, and as you were surely aware, that’s not what stuttering really is. Stuttering is the case where it becomes a bit of, uh, an impediment. I wouldn’t say an impediment, but one of the steps through life. Um, but you, you might observe in a child repetitions. Prolongations I think it’s very important not to overreact to these, uh, you know, consult your therapist and learn if you’re concerned. Probably a lot of it is just normalcy. Um, this fluency, as you will notice in my own speech, I, I do not remember a period of stuttering, but I have, I do remember having difficulties pronouncing my own name.
Speaker 0 08:12 So in first grade. So I do wonder if I really had, uh, elements of this, uh, process in my own life. But, uh, certainly don’t categorize anything. Um, based on disfluency, which is such a normal part, if you will, language, uh, as things progress, it might become impossible to ignore. Um, you might notice some surprise in the eyes of the child signs of struggle and, uh, blocking, um, you know, if they try to say a sound to just get playing, get stuck on that sound. It can’t go any further. If this begins to stop expression, if muscles tightened, if there signs of distress, if there’s interference with communication that you consider worrisome, by all means consult the therapist. There are so many good therapists, the world civilization advances. Um, I remember, I don’t know the details, but I remember when I was researching all of this when either once in a small survey in California where they discovered that speech pathology.
Speaker 0 09:24 I think it was speech pathology, outcome studies they were finding it really wasn’t making much of a difference. Not much of a benefit, but civilization advances now. And I think I put consonants in science and um, um, go out and find people and use those people that know so much about this beyond what I’m going to talk about and put your faith into, but use your judgment because not everybody will be on top of things the way you will want them to be. Um, in fact, in our case, as the child progressed, by the time it was for, it was really worrisome. We took them to major speech clinics and they classified it as one of the more difficult or more extreme cases they hadn’t seen. And um, what was a little bit of settings, they all wanted to do different things. Some, some folks want not to bring it to the child’s attention.
Speaker 0 10:22 Other people want to videotape the child and make them very aware of it. Not to pass judgment on anything at this point. Just to say that you’ll find all these different responses be that you will have a responsibility to try and find the best people. And do careful thinking to pick what you think is the best approach? Um, well we came back from visiting speech pathologist one summer and um, uh, I just came to the conclusion I wanted to, uh, really figure this out for myself. So I did stop working for a long time and read everything I could. I had access to a university library. Everything I could find, I took immediately to Charles van riper. I can’t emphasize enough how, how much fun it can be to read. He has one of the best senses of humor, if any human being the guys that absolute stand up comedian and somethings.
Speaker 0 11:17 And yet he is deadly serious about solving an important problem, which I claim he actually did solve, at least in his case. And in terms of philosophy and following it, I do believe that he did lead the way to somewhere very real. I leave it open to you whether you find better or improved approaches. Um, the, um, the goal. So, so I, so I stopped working, I decided to figure out what to do and um, looking back on it now as I look on it, um, just to give you a quick summary before I go into details, the, the overall philosophy I think is very important and that is that as the theory therapy proceeds, the goal should be good life, good life experiences and the child and the whole feeling of interaction should be that life’s problems diminish over time. This is advice that can help a lot of young people and the child should, if you’re successful, the child should begin to discover that they can, the child can he or she can stutter or fluently can begin to express what they want and the focus should always be on life, life, adventure and not to get held up.
Speaker 0 12:43 Um, I if you don’t like looking at this as a real impediment, that sounds like too big a word, slowing down too much of life. I know it can be very serious and cause real distress. Um, I know that it can be classified as a real problem, but the bigger picture is there is a way forward and you will meet so many stutters that know that and do that. Um, uh, folks who stutter some and just don’t care and go out into life is Joe Biden like that. Um, somebody who just proceeded straight directly into life. Uh, you want to try to add positives wherever you can in the child’s life. I mean, Joe Biden had, uh, you know, personality and um, kind of a politician. His looks. Um, one of the people I admire most that came through stuttering well was he became a way, a weightlifter and was very popular with, with university women.
Speaker 0 13:45 Uh, it’s, it’s really helpful to have other positives going. So one piece of advice is maybe don’t just focus on this one issue, but find what is great for the child overall and work on that. Um, now with regard to theory, I’m just summarizing an advanced here before I go too far. Um, what I, what I really believe is, let’s just say that when I was reading it was just absolutely wasn’t. Knowing what the causes of stuttering were was, um, today they know their genetic factors. Uh, there are lots of theories. Um, and um, there’s still a lot of unknown. So let us not say we don’t know anything about the cause of stuttering, but whether I say that in all of science, there remain mysteries and there are here too. So let me give you my summary belief. After all this experience, my belief is that when the child begins to repeat, begins to stutter, it’s because breeding cycles are preempted.
Speaker 0 14:55 In other words, it’s just like anybody who we all stutter later in life, if you get distracted, you will repeat some syllables. If the brain cycles are drawn off to something else. Now notice that is a kind of a definition. But as a scientist, you would, might say he’s not very ambitious because it really doesn’t nail it down. Why would say that’s true? And I’m not claiming any great advance in my own thinking. But I also think that that’s the beauty of the definition. Because if there could be many distractions, there can be many causes. So, for example, if a child is having trouble with articulation, and I believe this can be a factor based amount of experience, this, this, uh, condition comes on just when the child is, you could say struggling bus to say in the intensive phase of learning the pronunciation of his or her language.
Speaker 0 15:59 So PR articulation, pronunciation is not perfect. So what if the child’s hearing is better than one’s production? What if the chart hears that he or she is saying things just the way he or she wants to, while attention could be drawn, um, especially if the parents have trouble or anybody understanding something the child may notice they didn’t understand what I’m trying to say and what I’m saying doesn’t sound quite right. So that could be a distraction. Another one might be that is just in the process of learning the early stages of learning language. A I child child’s thinking has quite advanced, has nice, fast thoughts that the child should be proud of and we’ll, we’ll, we’ll value through life might get ahead a little bit. And then the issue of retrospectively looking back as the pronunciation drags on behind a little bit. Um, so that, that is a thing that is a kind of a theory that I’ve held and you will see that about the therapy that I designed, that it had it, the intention of the plan, the whole scheme is to address all of the possible interferences at once, which I will get on to.
Speaker 0 17:23 But uh, you can evaluate that for yourself whether, uh, there is the child instead of just thinking about what they’re saying ends up thinking about pronunciation or thinking about why is that person looking upset because I’m repeating myself for why is that person not hearing what I’m saying? Um, there could be multiple important thoughts in the child’s brain besides the simple beautiful thought that he or she is trying to express. Now. Uh, there are a lot of things that stuttering is not, they need to be put to one side. It’s, I’m sure you will read a lot of the literature and get good advice. Many places, uh, very common for the mother to feel at fault. Here she is. This is all the schools these days worth fathers are involved in raising children, but the mother can feel like all this time at home with the mother, somehow she did something wrong.
Speaker 0 18:25 It’s been proven that that is not a fact, is not the cause of stuttering and it’s not a mental illness. It’s in no way isn’t a neurosis of any kind. Um, so it’s really, human beings tend to over generalize. They tend to go too far. You see something that’s a little bit wrong and there’s a tendency to go to some grand conclusion. And I would say, don’t go there. There’s a little thing, there’s a limited thing wrong. I shouldn’t call it little because I know it can be felt as very difficult, but there’s a limited thing at work and I really think it’s wrong to going to go and widen this to have with that, there’s some very big thing wrong, like a mental illness. Now in that context, don’t forget that the home does have, is a set of factors that the child has to deal with.
Speaker 0 19:22 So there is, I noticed in the literature there was some belief even today that a general fast paced, high expectation environment to the home can’t be a factor if everybody is fast talker talkers and lot of interrupting, um, it’s just like everybody’s at a dead run and the child is trying to learn language and has great spirit for life and wants to get into that. It just can’t keep up. I mean, you know, you want to think about all the possibilities, uh, that could be a factor in the home. Um, it’s no that, uh, the siblings and others competing with the child for attention and time at the dinner table and whatever can be felt to be a little bit difficult for some children. So, uh, everything should be considered here, but please do not take aim at one particular person in the home or, uh, think of it as something wrong with the child’s mental facilities.
Speaker 0 20:30 Um, okay. So what did, what, what was the therapy, what did he do? Well, what I did was I took van riper, his book, which was, did all the therapies. Please note since then there will have been a lot more therapies. So you may want to do this for yourself or you just may want to, uh, find a convergence of ideas that suits your belief as to what will really help and track that single approach. But van riper was Sarah survey. So I made a chart of all the, all the therapies and very quickly see that there are conflicting interventions used by different therapists. I referred to this a moment ago. Uh, people simply have different ideas about what to do and they can really vary probably less over time. But there there were big differences. So, uh, you take an evicted chart and down the left side you put all the different therapies on a piece of paper.
Speaker 0 21:34 Great big, huge piece of know construction paper, you know, a couple of feet across, a couple of feet down and across the top you put all the different interventions that they use and you will find that some of the approaches are recommended by multiple therapies. Some of them are, or let’s even say they’re a little bit common, a lot of therapies use them. And there are other therapies that are more unusual, are not used by them. So I said to myself, well, you have to respect people who have been working in the field, but it’s just the women had all of the rare and unusual approaches. Perhaps these were over time will prove to be very important, but for maybe you consider this a limitation. But what I decided to do was not to do anything that seemed too radical or extreme because it was really unusual.
Speaker 0 22:31 So you’ve, you’ve narrowed your chart down the common approaches and now you start, you find that there’s still conflicts. So, uh, uh, some therapies would draw attention to the child stuttering and say things like, um, try to slow it down or why don’t you, um, um, take a deep breath. Some therapies draw attention to the stuttering. Others say, never draw attention to the stuttering. Um, uh, it just increases the child’s self awareness, which creates, it creates additional problems. So there’s an example of a conflict. What do you do? Well, what I advocate and believe in. You can, you can come to your own conclusion is simply to look at the conflicts and pick whichever option is most loving or caring. And this is where the idea of what advances the fun and adventure of the warmth of life. Uh, most what event, what advances those kinds of values in life the most.
Speaker 0 23:49 So you, so you pick the one that is most fun and most engaging. And so rather than <inaudible> the approach that, uh, I adopted rather than draw attention for the child, so the child down, I would always want to show the fun of understanding what the child said and moving the conversation ahead to the next event in life to make, to, to comment on it, to, to, to show you understood it and extend it to, to pick up on it, to use it to play off of what the child says. The idea being not to slow down the child, but to keep wife moving. Because for me, that’s the whole idea. If stuttering can receive, isn’t it best if it can receive the environment of life advancing and the adventure of life, uh, continuing so that, that, that was the basic way that I resolved the various conflicts to pick the one that is most loving and the one that creates conversational interest and excitement.
Speaker 0 25:03 I mean not over excitement, interest and involvement and uh, uh, sincere, uh, sincere interaction with the child going with the child and not just going with the child, but giving input to it, the back and forth. Everybody knows what a good conversation is like. Um, the idea is to end up with that. And so that really doesn’t have to do with stuttering or does it because that is dealing with the human interaction more than the stuttering directly. Notice this does not draw attention to the stuttering, but is always drawing along beside it. The idea is simply to place your bets. You might even say to yourself, well, what if this doesn’t work? Well, if it doesn’t work, although I emphasize that it did, if it doesn’t work, what do you have? Well then you have a situation where you’ve spent all this time with your child and it’s been good time with the child and it’s been rewarding and fulfilling and there’s the back and forth, you know, the child where the child knows you more. It’s uh, it, uh, it’s a piece of life worth having even if the therapy doesn’t do what you want, although thank goodness it did.
Speaker 0 26:36 So, um,
Speaker 0 26:39 When, when, when, when I look at the, the chart then the individual inter, uh, interventions, um, what are the factors that that came out of the chart, um, that helped to design a therapy was I just said, you need to enjoy the conversation. That just sums up what I’ve been saying for the last few minutes. You need to enjoy the conversation. But from looking at the chart, I concluded that you need a column environment. You also need an articulation model in articulation support. Remember, the child is trying to develop his or her phonology, the sounds, the pronunciations of the language. You know, in some languages, even in check, there’s some sounds that children with no difficulties don’t acquire until the seven. And a half years old. The sound. So you know, it takes awhile there. There, there is a warning because aren’t here. So the child needs articulation, modeling and support. The child needs ample time. There shouldn’t be a feeling of time pressure.
Speaker 0 27:46 The child needs not to be interrupted excessively does, it needs not to be interrupted. After all of the theory that brain cycles get consumed and interfere with language is correct. Interruption introduces a new channel under the whole thing and the child doesn’t know whether to listen or to keep talking. Who wouldn’t repeat? I think many people might repeat some syllables where they’ve been interrupted. I also think the child needs confidence about the future. There should be a, there should be a, uh, an attitude or a philosophy behind all of this where you kind of believe that all is going to go well. The child will have a, uh, a good outcome and a good outcome. And, um, from my experience, if you adopt or even forced this attitude and yourself, who knows what attitudes can be forced in oneself. If you, if you impose this philosophy, I don’t believe there’s a dishonesty there because if the future can work out well, whatever the outcome of his stuttering therapy, um, you also need this perception of normalcy as you talk. Remember the point of normalcy is to communicate the back and forth ideas going on. Do ideas coming in, transitioning from it. One idea that’s been raised to the next one that occurs in that context.
Speaker 0 29:24 So conversational flow becomes, uh, one of the ideas that is recorded is required in this approach. Now when we get down to the more technical level, there are some additional pieces that I, that I became aware of that I found valuable. I’ll leave it to you to decide what might be good for you. I found that I had certain emotional, I had body language reactions that needed to be neutralized. Uh, I think his name was bird whistle early discovered way back many decades ago that human beings have well into the twenties. The number of signals sent by eye positionings and body language. Um, I think you might try doing what I did. I went, I was fortunate teaching in university to have students who were stutters. And I asked them to critique me. What’s it like to talk to me? What kind of person have I talked to?
Speaker 0 30:30 And I found, I learned of one example was that I had a habit of crossing my arms and I was told by a very high IQ intelligence stutter who later got a PhD that uh, crossing the arms can feel like impatience to a stutterer. And I very quickly became aware that my eyes were reacting out of concern with the child had severe reactions. So these are feedback mechanisms. The child who does something, he’s looking at the eyes of the parent, he sees the reaction to the parent. Once again, the mind is distracted. It started thinking about, Oh, am I doing something that makes people react that way? There’s thinking, there’s concern, there’s anxiety there. So if a parent cares too, I believe it’s worthwhile doing a little what’s called therapy on yourself, trying to ease yourself out of these strong reactions, which in the end aren’t warranted.
Speaker 0 31:32 The child can have a good life, but which are perhaps natural reactions when you see a child struggle. So you may or may not want to work on your, uh, your emotional mind, body language reactions. Uh, but I felt it was important. Uh, in addition, I thought it was important to re to reduce conversational competition in the family. Uh, at the dinner table. I here I made him made a mistake really because actually I, I never know. I’ve been very aware of my own shortcomings, uh, as everyone should be a minor particularly evident perhaps. But if you have a child who’s really struggling and the competition of the family is really making it hard, should you go through a period where you ask the other children to back off, well, this could be harder than the other children on the other hand, properly appreciated those children become heroes and should be proud and should have feelings of great self-esteem about themselves because they helped another person in need. It’s a bit of a complicated question, but I think the psychological literature would generally teach you that putting too much pressure on children to function at the adult level is very hard on children. So I ask you to approach that with some circumspection even though I still myself find it a complicated question.
Speaker 0 33:06 So those are the elements that were extracted from the charts. Those were, that’s the general philosophy. Those are the pieces. So how is it done? What is the actual technique? Well, I thought, and I thought I looking at the chart for many hours, I said I have to just reduce this to something very simple that can encompass all of this. And what I came up with is the belief that it has to be a multifunctional approach and do a few things that have a lot of effects. So here are the two things that I came up with and that was to use what is called echo speech, which I will explain it as I’ve been talking about to always advance the conversation in a constructive way. No echo speech. This is kind of the centerpiece of the whole approach. The child starts to say something, he started says, I won’t want to go, go, whatever.
Speaker 0 34:07 That’s a mild stuttering there. And of course, if the child continues, there’s no need to say anything. But if there’s a pause where they’re struggling, I adopted the proxy process of simply echoing what the child says. There’s, I would say call away, not in a hurry, just echo it. We want it to go kind of a half question. Now this shows the child that his speech is being understood. I believe that reduces anxiety. This is his models, the articulation, the pronunciation of the words that the child is trying to learn. I believe that’s the value. This gives the child a chance to think a little bit, make use of the time in collecting thoughts and preparing conversation. Everything is the deadline. Uh, uh, uh, everything is a headlong race into the next sentence. Uh, it shows, it shows interest in the child, the value it shows value and what the child is saying.
Speaker 0 35:24 Any psychologist would tell you that validation is the first step in good human interaction anyway. That is a solid basis for a lot of this. So you echo, but it also, it’s kind of an easy thing for you to do. So it’s relaxing for you. It gives you a minute to think about what your thoughts are. Like the child might carry the conversation forward or it might be left to you. It gives you a chance to come up with what you think is just to search your own interests in what’s your comeback, what’s your, what’s your, what, what you think to say mean? You just want to interject some good feeling, you know, let’s do it or whatever comes to mind. Um, are you sure you want to, is there anything that could be said there that relates to your relationship to the child and what the child is thinking?
Speaker 0 36:27 So echo speech is the centerpiece of everything I did. I did it for three and a half years. I came home or away from work around three o’clock, went to the beach for a walk. Just many, many, many days. And, uh, spent it, drive down and drive back and then at least an hour at the VA peach just doing this every, every day. And, um, the, uh, benefits began to appear, which I’ll talk about in a minute, but I’d also like to point out that there are other dimensions to the solution that, uh, the child’s wife, his mother, my former wife, became the priest, a preschool teacher in this school to, uh, always be around to help in any situation where the child might be ridiculed for stuttering or might be really difficult situations. She was always there to facilitate. So that was, that was ongoing and that went on for I think a whole, I think a whole year. We’ll see. So it’s four to five and then the child went to kindergarten? Yes, for a year. Um, so whether it was doing, it was, it was around during the play school for one year. The father, three and a half years, did two hour sessions.
Speaker 0 37:53 Outcome. What happened? Well, this persisted for three and a half years and there were bits of improvement with regression cycles, improvement regression cycles as we started. You begin to see a little bit of improvement, then a lot of regressions, a little bit of improvement, a lot of regression. But the overall, if you draw a graph of how we were doing, if we kept actual objective statistics, there was improvement over time. And eventually after, I don’t know, a year, year and a half, maybe a stuttering became intermittent, but it was not eliminated because it became intermittent. And then there was when there was a good period and we’d try to just ease off of the therapy, which was, you know, this took over a good part of the family life. Uh, when we tried to ease off the therapy, that therapy, uh, uh, which was its effect. There’s not like a permanent effect. The child was still working through the whole thing and there remains some articulation issues and things. So we would go back to the therapy and the fam, a family got
Speaker 0 39:04 Quite tired doing quite tired doing this. It was, you know, there were some moments of stress about it. Well, a feeling was to really persist with this and take it through final rates of success and the intermittency, the, uh, the on and off nature, uh, went in our favor. The, the fluent period has gotten longer and the stuttering periods got shorter. And, um, if there was some stuttering, the amount of renewed therapy required to get back to phone and C was less finally at around age, under seven and a half or so, maybe a little before that. Um, there seemed to be a success. We had a fluent child and the child, um, went through the rest of his life now for many decades without stuttering.
Speaker 2 39:59 Mmm.
Speaker 0 40:01 So that, that is the story of what we did and how we did it. Um, I think the purpose of this discussion should not be for you to swallow whole what I’ve said, but this should create a mental list in your mind of
Speaker 2 40:19 Okay.
Speaker 0 40:20 Of deeds for critique. Where does it feel like I’m wrong? Where am I at? I have misperceived part of the process. Uh, where might your child be different whereby other therapies have improved since I did this? Uh, really the, the whole approach here should be that, uh, I asked what she, what, what could be done and you should ask what could be done better. Um, but it’s not present this as a solution to the problem of stuttering. Uh, rather, this is part of the discussion and the critique that you might present is the next step. Uh, how wonderful where I might be found wrong. Just think about that. Civilization advances science discovers things. What about the person to find something wrong? Please do not rush into taking the approach I did without your own investigations. Find what seems to be appropriate in your situation and then watch carefully.
Speaker 0 41:30 Do you have new ideas? You will, you can’t do better. The problem with stuttering is one that is obviously quite challenging from a pure, purely scientific point of view because it’s not entirely resolved. We still have it centered since society that is significant. But this is your opportunity to, uh, to play a role in it. Learning what helps cause that is what I am most interested in. That is what I sought to find out what helps. Okay. Well, thank you for listening to a, a long, uh, description. Uh, I hope it’s of help to some folks and, uh, I wish you all the best, best of luck with your, uh, your problem, which is, uh, maybe not best viewed as a problem, but as one of the steps to move through the adventure of life. Thanks.